writing system (prior to them adopting runes), yet professor Tolkien never wrote these down, nor do we really know anything beyond the fact that these once were used by the dwarves.
So sadly, I can’t give you any dwarvish symbols at all, let alone regarding specific topics.
More information about this earlier writing system can be found inthis older ASK. This also includes a wonderful attempt by @striving-artist at creating an ideographic system by using Neo-Khuzdul words.
An example of an ideographic writing system made by @striving-artist
Hello there! Well met! No need to beg for assistance, happy to aid when I can.
I would translate these lines as:
“Iziz Tumunzaharul ra Gabilgatholul.”
“Gunrû ‘Urstarâg ra Fantnuhûb.”
“Mahal maharuma.”
“Iziz” – I’m using the nominative form here as I’ve added “-ul” to both place names. The -ul form is used here because we want to indicate descriptive origins (like: “from the iron” (“Zirnul”) – indicating origins of an element. There are other options, using the constructive for instance, but I believe this would fit best.
Incidentally, the “-az”-form I no longer included in the current Neo-Khuzdul grammar, what I referred to in the documentation as “Classical Khuzdul” (CK). It however would still be present in the “Blue Mountains Khuzdul” (BMK). And seeing that we are talking about just these halls, it is indeed still a valid option for your translation (if you want to give it that local touch). In that case, this part of your translation would be perfectly fine.
Usage of “ra” instead of “/”: I used “ra” (meaning “and”), as I do not believe the “/”-sign would be present in Khuzdul runic writing. Note though that “ra” does have its own rune, which you could use (if you are writing this in runes of course). More on that HERE.
I also translated “property of” literally to “Gunrû” (using the construct form), which means the clan names would not need to be modified to include a possessive genitive marker.
The last line “Mahal be praised”, is translated perfectly. One could be tempted to use the passive imperative (”maihrim” here, but seeing we are not “commanding” Mahal to be praised, but merely suggesting others should praise him, your choice of the passive subjunctive is absolutely spot on! “Mahal Maharuma”, literally meaning “Mahal, let him be praised” fits perfectly.
Please do show me those coins when you are done, I would love to see them.
Ever at your service,
The Dwarrow Scholar
I am swooning. You’ve swooned me. I am disproportionately gleeful to have conjugated a verb correctly. This is an excellent night.
The “/” sign I blame on tumblr’s character limit and my own hubris… I’d meant to have two separate sentences whose only differences were the proper nouns; “Coin from Tumunzahar property of the Firebeards” and “Coin from Gabilgathol property of the Broadbeams”. My theory is that each hall has their own mint, and would wish to differentiate their own coins from their neighbor’s, even if the value was the same.
Would the same construction apply? Making it “Izizaz Tumuzaharul gunrû ‘Urstârag” and “Izizaz Gabilgatholul gunrû Fantnuhûb”, respectively?
…And if I can sneak in a separate topic: I’ve done my best to coin (hah) some words for “electrum” and “nickel”, but I’m at a loss as to how to shorten them into the terms for coinage such as “Kibil” –> “Kabl” or “Mikil” –> “Makl”. For electrum, I compounded words for “containing gold and silver” with the same ending as the other coins, and got “Barkadzurl”, (or “Zurl” but I am less confident that would be recognizable on its own). For nickel I tried “yellow-tin” or “tahfazimil”, and shortened it to “tahfl”. Again, I am not confident that holds together.
Thank you so much for lending me your expertise and time, and for the truly epic undertaking that is your Neo Khuzdul lexicon. 🙂 Hobnobbing with you linguists is the coolest part of being a Tolkien fan. It will be my pleasure to show off the coin designs when they’re done! I’ll be sure to tag you in it and give all due credit for the translation assist.
-BREAKS DOWN THE FUCKING DOOR WITH EOL MORIQUENDI-
"Heard you were talkin’ shit"
i mean this makes zero sense considering that elrond could read thror’s map, right? c’mon…..
Actually, in the interest of being fair to Elrond (who, no, doesn’t speak khuzdul) the map was written in cirth.
Cirth runes, first invented by an elf named Daeron, were the earliest writing system in Beleriand. Once the Noldor arrived and the Sindar grew in might, tengwar became a thing- the typical ‘elvish letters’ you see. Dwarves kept cirth because its lines were easier to carve in stone, but it wasn’t a part of their secret tongue- anyone could learn cirth, the dwarves just use it on most official documents as opposed to tengwar or what passes for a westron alphabet.
It was the ‘moon rune’ part of the map they needed Elrond for. That kind of lore had been lost to the dwarves (they keep getting kicked out of mountains. Dragons, earth-shattering wars, balrogs…) so while Thror might have known the secret of it, Thorin didn’t.
That being said, in elvish history only three elves are presumed to have spoken khuzdul and one is definitely confirmed. It’s theorized that Pengolodh of Gondolin knew a little bit of dwarvish, and the fact that he invented the alphabet the dwarves use in public often means Daeron is thought to have spoken it, as well.
Eol is the only absolute we know of, and it’s possible that the dwarvish he knew was the Secret Tongue, while the dwarvish Daeron and Pengolodh might have known was a sort of slurred precursor that the dwarves used in company before converting to Westron and Sindarin.
It’s important to know that the dwarves do not speak their tongue from birth. They are taught it, as anyone is taught a second language. This means that a dwarf from the Orocarni might speak a Harad dialect as a top language, and a dwarf from Erebor might speak westron; but they could talk to one another, overcoming that language barrier, by using the secret tongue, which is universal with very few changes.
Khazad means ‘speaker’ because the dwarves had language first, and considering what else they’ve got going for them, they consider it pretty important. Frankly the amount of dwarvish used in the current hobbit films (around Bilbo and Gandalf specifically) is so far outside of the original canon that it’s almost appalling. I mean, I like it, but it sort of goes directly against dwarves as we know them.
…then again Tolkien thought dwarves didn’t keep animals, and that there were only twoeelf-human sexual interactions in the whole of his universe. So. Let’s not talk about authorial intent.
Anyhoo, the long and short of it is that the dwarves thought Eol was awesome enough to teach the super secret language they didn’t teach anyone else and I want everyone to know that all the time caus’ no one cares but me. >_>
Sorry for running off at the text post.
I should probably put this on my Eöl blog, but WHAT THE HECK IT’S COOL META
So I went through a ton of caps to find clear enough images to suss out exactly what Dwalin’s trademark badass knucketats actually say. There are a few characters missing, either they’re scarred over or there never was a good look at them in the film, but I think the conclusions I’ve reached are extremely logical. It’s like playing hangman in Khuzdul.
Anyway, absolutely nobody should be surprised with what it turned out to be—one of the only dwarvish lines in Tolkien’s works, a battle cry uttered by Gimli at the Battle of Hornuburg. Surprising nobody, WETA is composed of extremely thorough nerds. Not only are these phrases characteristic of the Dwarves as a people, they’re also extremely well suited to be etched into Dwalin’s skin, given his life experiences.
MisbehavingMaiar: Tumblr Archive 