I’m not convinced by the idea of arranged marriages in the elven societies. I know it’s a popular trope and my opinion might displease a few persons, but even when I put aside my personal issues and horror at the idea of arranged marriages in any kind of setting, I can’t see how it could work among the Eldar.
Arranged marriages in human societies aren’t exactly idyllic to say the least, but I reckon that it sometimes ended up quite well, that there could sometimes be respect from both sides, including regarding the sexual aspect.
But elven marriages happen through sex, which means that there would be no marriage is the two persons involved don’t have sex with each other.
An arranged marriage among the Eldar would mean; parents actually making their kid have sex with someone for a specific purpose. I suppose you can understand why I’m basically horrified by this idea, especially when you know how the LaCE treat marriage, love, family and sexuality.
Two elves sharing strong platonic bonds and deciding by themselves to get married for various good reasons, that’s a thing
(e.g. my Curufin is aromantic but decided to get married and proposed someone he respected, liked and admired.) An arranged marriage, where they don’t really have the choice and/or decide to get married only for the sake of politics, parental authority, etc is another thing.
I can already hear the arguments about Curufin and Celegorm’s idea concerning Luthien, and people replying that “They planned an arranged marriage between Celegorm and Luthien.” But that is not how I’ve understood the text.
My interpretation is different, and yet it is simple. The plan was that Celegorm would seduce Luthien, to make her fall in love with him, or at least, like him enough to accept the wedding. And Curufin’s talent for persuasion would help her understand what (they think) is the best for her.
Celegorm after all, is a powerful, handsome lord, he’s smart, charismatic, and he’s of royal blood. There must be many elves courting him. In their pride, the Fëanorians are convinced Luthien will fall for Celegorm, in his pride, Celegorm is convinced he will make her forget Beren. How could she refuse such a handsome, strong suitor?
I always reckon the narrative bias in the text we have in the Silm, but it is said that Celegorm and Curufin planned to ‘force Thingol to give her hand to Celegorm’. Not to force Luthien, but to force Thingol; the nuance is important; We know the elves would rarely get married without the approval of their parents. And Curufin already lectured Eol about it (“For those who still the daughters of the Noldor and wed them without gift or leave do not gain the kinship with their kin”), Luthien isn’t a Noldo, but the patriarcal authority is still a thing among the elves, all of them, so Curvo knows the father’s approval is a law and he would not go against this law. Especially when he and Celegorm actually want to gain the kinship of Thingol! Stealing his daughter without his or her approval wouldn’t get them any kind of kinship, and their plan would be reduced to ashes!
And for Curufin and Celegorm, Luthien could not refuse a marriage with *~Celegorm the Fair~*, they’re convinced she will accept, so the only thing they have to do is to convince her father. They’re wrong, of course, blinded by their pride. But there never was any plan to force her. The plan was to seduce her, and then to make her understand that a marriage between their two houses would be good for everyone. But their plan wasn’t good, Luthien didn’t want Celegorm and Thingol, who already hated them, panicked and took their words as a threat,
So yeah… all of this to say that arranged marriages among the Eldar? Basically I don’t see how it could happen, unless the two persons involved actually want it to happen and already have a strong connection, platonic or not.
okay PLEASE TALK ABOUT PAGAN MODELS OF HEROISM, I don’t really know what’s going on but it sounds fascinating
fuck ok short version:
a ‘pagan’ (i.e. pre-Christian) hero is:
– super good at killing people – hella emotional – obsessed with personal glory – beautiful – also: musical, eloquent, probably doomed
see Achilles especially, but actually these tropes as heroic tropes are all over the place pre-Christianity. My personal favourite is the story of the Spartan warriors the night before the big battle with the Persians all sitting around oiling each other up and combing their hair.
(caveat to everything: I am a classicist, Tolkien is obviously working more off the Anglo-Saxon/Norse epic tradition than the classical one. Caveat to the caveat: Anglo-Saxon heroism involves literal boasting battles so I think we’re safe carrying the obsession with personal glory across at least.)
Pagan heroes, basically, often come across as jerks or vain idiots (or ‘effeminate’ sometimes gets tossed around, with all the unfortunate implications you’d expect) if you don’t have the cultural context for them. But in context this is the behaviour of the manliest of manly men.
Meanwhile a lot of our modern ideas about what makes a hero are informed by the last couple of thousand years of culture in Europe and places Europe colonised, which in turn were informed by Christian thinking. The Christian model of heroism relies a lot on ideas about martyrdom and self-sacrifice (and also a whole lot of pilfered Stoic and Neoplatonist stuff + the Aeneid + borrowed Jewish mysticism, because early Christianity basically ransacked the pockets of Mediterranean culture for stuff it liked.) It sets itself up as the opposite of everything that came before – so no killing people! No enormous emotional outbursts! No quests for personal glory! No doing your hair before the battle!
Obviously Tolkien was very Catholic and that comes across in his work. I think it is interesting & pretty effective to read the characters as the Silmarillion as collectively stuck in the same philosophical predicament as, say, Beowulf – who is a hero in the pagan model (boasts a lot, super good at killing shit) and who as a pagan hero does nothing wrong. But he lives in a world that is explicitly, textually Christian! Only none of the characters know.
It is interesting & effective & really fun to write all the Silm characters like they are starring in a pre-Christian epic. Their concepts of what constitute heroic behaviour are not like ours – because they’re admirable but missing key information, in the same way Beowulf is missing key information.
In conclusion you better believe everyone spent the night before the Nirnaeth getting their hair perfect and singing about how fucking great at defeating their enemies they are.
Now I myself Never Meta because it’s exhausting, but I’m so happy @emilyenrose is here to rep the pagan hero, which is honestly 90% of my interest in Silm fandom anyway. I think the model of the Christian hero tends to be why Túrin gets so much flack, since he’s a perfect example of the pagan model but definitely not someone who rubs up against Christian virtues at all.
tl;dr give me the pagans doing their hair pretty any day
There you go, catching me at my own game, you clever clog. But can you blame me? What chance do you suppose I have against you if I did not use all my wits in my defense?
Moreover, between you and me… our “peace” is not so very boring, is it? *wink*
‘Between you and me’? There is nothing between us – I do not know what you are trying to reference, cousin, but I do know that if you continue your insinuations there will be no peace between us for you to comment upon.
Very well, very well. *spreads hands* I’ll trouble you no further. I only sought to clarify.
Things my muses fear, Melkor Edition:
1. Tulkas. he has one job on this miserable earth, ordained by god, and it is to kick my ass whenever possible. that’s it. that’s his raison d’être. he’s the god of kicking one ass. my ass. so fuck that guy.
2. Mandos: 1/10 stars, terrible hospitality, would not recommend. Guess how many dust particles you can count in Four Ages? So many! I named all 98 quadrillion of them. Shout out to my boy Jimmy for being the best, least-identical mote and a great listener haha call me bro
3. Bondage: hey you know what’s great about being chained up for eons? literally nothing
4. Námo: he’s the death guy. he does death.
5. Varda: Do you ever look up at the stars and think “why are they flipping me off?” No? Just me? Okay. Furthermore: The universe is a giant, scary, cold, unfeeling place. It will keep going with or without you.
I am personally offended by this.
I feel like the endless reaches of space don’t respect me? Don’t they know who I am?
6: The Void: there is so much of it, all the time everywhere forever, and nothing else except me because i’m in it. I miss dust. And my legs.
“Fear” was perhaps too strong a word…. unease, discomfort, or worried by, those are more accurate. He is a tactical problem, a liability. -You- are a genuine threat. So long as you remain pacified, I can deal with the consequences of a mistrustful old Teler.
Besides, you know reason when you hear it– and is your elf not reasonable? He has not advised you to come rushing after my demise, nor pit your strength against mine. Our truce, however shaky, provides peace in the realm, does it not? He values peace, and I trust you do also… don’t you?
Hm. Attempting to ‘pacify’ me, are you?
…. You are not wrong; he does enjoy peace, and he is reasonable. But you are quick to assume what he has advised me to do with you, and you forget that he is not such a pacifist as to let shadows grow unchecked.
And personally, cousin, I have always found peace to be a bit boring.
*chuckle*
There you go, catching me at my own game, you clever clog. But can you blame me? What chance do you suppose I have against you if I did not use all my wits in my defense?
Moreover, between you and me… our “peace” is not so very boring, is it? *wink*
And yet, here we are. Me, still alive. You, beautiful as ever, tolerating my existence. It’s almost as if you and I have just enough in common that I can talk my way out of any serious trouble. *beardstroke*
… Perhaps with me. But your number one fear is not so easily dissuaded. And he is much better at persuading me than you are.
“Fear” was perhaps too strong a word…. unease, discomfort, or worried by, those are more accurate. He is a tactical problem, a liability. -You- are a genuine threat. So long as you remain pacified, I can deal with the consequences of a mistrustful old Teler.
Besides, you know reason when you hear it– and is your elf not reasonable? He has not advised you to come rushing after my demise, nor pit your strength against mine. Our truce, however shaky, provides peace in the realm, does it not? He values peace, and I trust you do also… don’t you?
Don’t get too cocky there, fishlips; his biggest weakness so far is you.
…………..
First of all, rude.
Secondly, I seem to recall you just stating that trying to upset him only makes him calm and mad which continues to terrify you so I still see no downside here.
Third of all, I fail to see how I need to stop being cocky when you are second-most-afraid of the very element that I embody.
And yet, here we are. Me, still alive. You, beautiful as ever, tolerating my existence. It’s almost as if you and I have just enough in common that I can talk my way out of any serious trouble. *beardstroke*
Don’t get too cocky there, fishlips; his biggest weakness so far is you.
Update: Sauron is not afraid of hobbits. He was unaware that hobbits existed up until very recently. he literally did not have time to be afraid of them, they went from a 0 to 100 threat level in twenty seconds. There he was, minding his own business worrying about the usual Elves and Men when suddenly these kids are on his lawn and now he’s dead, like just;
What did— who–
did I just get one-shotted by an infant how is this occurring
MisbehavingMaiar: Tumblr Archive 